Kamalayan: Conversations To Self-Awareness
Kamalayan: Conversations To Self-Awareness
Ama, Ina, Anak
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Who are you in the family? What part do you play?
Family, the very basic unit of society, can be a source of breakdowns and negativity as it can be a wellspring of reinforcement and stability. Many of the challenges often find root in its very construct: hierarchy, assigned roles, and accompanying expectations.
In their newest session, have a listen as Stephanie and Leo share views and observations on traditional familial roles and how adhering to these has impacted individuals in a variety of ways.
Leo and Stephanie are college friends exploring ideas on self-awareness and the therapying Filipino. E. A language and professional development trainer and based in the Philippines. And B, American family therapist living in the U.S. Exchange thoughts and observations on culture and its impact on their identity. Kamalayan, consciousness, or awakening in Filipino hopes to reveal nuggets that help make living a little more interesting and meaningful. Information that podcasts is for educational purposes only and is not meant to substitute professional mental health and psychological services. For listeners in the U.S., you might contact 1-800-662HELP for information and referrals. And in the Philippines, you may contact 1553 from your landline.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to another episode of Kamalayan Conversations to Self-Awareness.
SPEAKER_01I'm Stephanie and I have my co-host here, Leo.
SPEAKER_08Hi, and uh hello to everyone, to all of our listeners and our followers. And we're so glad to be back again recording. It's been a while, it's been a minute, right?
SPEAKER_01It's been 365 days or more. Like it's been a long time. It's been a long time. So yeah, like life got in the way, at least for me. Life got in the way, just busy with kids, the young practice go and everything. But Lei, what about for you?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, same on my end. It's been a busy, well, a busy two years, I guess. I mean, well, aside from seeing you in the US, I'm sure some of our followers had seen the posts that we had put up. I've also gone back to singing, so that's also been that's what's been keeping me busy of late, singing in the choir, that is, and um work, juggling that with work. So yeah, we're definitely living full lives. And but we've never forgotten, of course, our listeners. From time to time, my friends would always say that, hey, when are you guys recording again and all that? So we're glad that we're back at it again. Um, because we did miss sharing a lot of our thoughts and conversations about things that that matter, things that itch us, and things that um we feel also a lot of our listeners can relate to, which is which brings us actually to the topic of today's conversation, something that a lot of us are quite familiar with, uh, that's quite prevalent in all of our lives. Not just, of course, the listeners, but even us, the hosts of this podcast, right?
SPEAKER_02What are we talking about today, so your topic not in today is gonna be the role expectations in the family. And so, you know, I think one of one of the things too that I've been major busy about is like not only have I been a little bit more active, uh Filipino American community dito in terms of mental health, like connecting with other therapists here and doing like a speaking engagement with the Filipino American community. So being a family therapist, like it's still I'm still really drawn to that, like young expectations within the family, young birth order, you know, all of these things. And what's interesting is that I don't really have any firsthand experienced firsthand experience because I'm only child ngaho. But right when I think about like young, because I'm close to my cousins, when I see them, and then I'm like remembering yung work go and I see how they operate or how they show up safely nila, like it just draws me in, you know. So that's why I thought about this and you know, proposed and we had a conversation around this.
SPEAKER_08Right. In my case, because a lot of times when I have conversations with a lot of my close friends about issues that we have in life and how we, you know, manage, navigate, um, a lot of it actually seems to go back to role expectations. Like a lot of the pressures that we are experiencing. I mean, it echoes throughout other aspects in our life. For example, work and uh societal standards, rituals, all of these observations that we have uh in us in our surroundings and how we react to things, always point back to how we grew up. And a lot of times, actually, it's about the expectations we have within the family. And what's interesting is that these role expectations, in as much as we all experience it individually, it's actually part of a bigger picture, right? It's part of a bigger background. It does have its societal aspect, it does have its cultural aspect, right? Things that we're quite unaware of because simply we're just in it. We're just in familial relations, familial interactions, but there's actually a bigger background to it all. And the reason why I mentioned that is because it's interesting when I was reading up about this, doing some research online, and also putting pieces together with what I remember in our history classes, our values classes, and all that, a lot of it has to do with our the history of being Filipino. Um, one of them is like our history as a colonized nation. You know, you have the Spaniards and then you have uh well, the Spaniards actually, since they've been in our experience for like 300 years, uh, they've really uh put in a lot in our culture in the way we think. Right? For example, uh, how religious we all are, uh or how religious our culture is, rather, uh how steeped in religion. So a lot of the expectations within the family actually point back also to that, to that historical artifact, so to speak. An example would be uh the idea of sacrifice, right? So that that also points back to role expectations, especially for parents, right? Um, I don't know, I will ask you later how you can relate to this, you being a parent yourself, but there's this idea of sacrifice in Filipino term dinayata is pag kahaloob or the giving of oneself. Well, when you're translating it, actually it literally means um giving of one's insides, right? So that's the whole idea of sacrifice. Now it goes back to the idea, uh rather to the historical aspect of things because it plays into religious sacrifice, right? Which is quite common in well, in my experience in the Roman Catholic culture, right? The giving of the body of Christ for one already points back to the idea of giving one's insides, right? So, and that is the ultimate sacrifice also of Jesus Christ, I think, if uh my religion, my knowledge of religion serves me right, is that he gave himself, and we try to emulate that, and a lot of our parents also try to emulate that, right? They emulated that okay, my role as a parent, I will sacrifice everything, I will give myself, even if it kills me, right?
SPEAKER_00I'll sacrifice everything, along along some ho.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, why? Because uh uh blessing, right? Right, and this is the promise I made because since I made the vow to become a parent, so it means that I need to sacrifice. So that's another expectation, which also harkens back to the historical aspect of things and cultural, historical and cultural aspect of things. So let me throw the uh question at you. As a parent, do you also adhere to that consciously or unconsciously, or do you know of people who adhere to that?
SPEAKER_02I think for sure, like so. I'm kind of like thinking about you experience ko, shaka experience ng husband ko, no. Yung husband ko is a little bit more like for him, it's like this ultimate sacrifice for the kids. Like, I'll do anything that I can that's within my power para i provide go sung an ho. Like jokes, na no, na. If I can afford it, I'll give them a pony. Talagang yin sha, right? And na ko personally, hindi ho, hindi ya ko ganon. Like I'm a little bit more parang, I would hate to say balanced, but it doesn't mean that it's like a good or bad thing. But I'm a little bit more balanced to where must an o must temper the ho ng ng conte. And again, it's not a good or bad thing. Hasband is very passionate in that way. And I'm a little bit more just this way. No, because it for me, I mean, again, I've you know, in doing my my work, like I I have parents that are talagang that are self-sacrificing, talag all about the kids. And you know, obviously, yung advantages of that is that you have a parent who's really over-responsive. I'm gonna get it. Yeah. Which is great, right? The kid feels assured, protected, all of that. But I can also see the flip side of that is that if they're a little bit more over-responsive, it's a little bit harder to have the kids listen to their gut, yung intuition about what they think is best for them. Because it's a good thing. The moment na mg speak up yung kid, that po some parents are like, oh, this this one, it too, it took mabuti paraseo, you know, all of those things. But in a sense, right? So there's also like drawbacks to that. But yeah, yung yung, like, you know, what I can share about yung experiences go.
SPEAKER_08Right. Like, I agree with you. There is nothing wrong with sacrifice and nothing wrong with commitment, actually, committing to that role that you chose. Or yeah, there's nothing wrong with commitment. I guess what we're conversing about is what impacts this role can have. Yeah. So in your case, for example, you said the child, the child can be overwhelmed by all this commitment because they need to match it. And what comes into play are several things. One of them that I wrote down here is the idea of utamna la'ob. So as a kid, as a child, what's expected of them is since I was raised by a committed parent, you know, I was given everything that I could ask for.
SPEAKER_00They sacrifice a lot. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08So there is that guilt that comes into play. You know, so utmla la obna, that that whole idea also affects and stresses, adds pressure to the kid, and also affects eventually the family dynamic, how they relate to each other and all that, which um goes back to what you said. For example, the kid can't really be expressive of themselves, because it's not a good idea.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_08Well, if I start questioning how my parents are, or if I ask for some more, or if I turn them down, my gosh, what will that make me seem like? That I'm such an ingrate, I'm such a bad son.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08So may mangan yeah.
SPEAKER_02I want to comment nang sa utang naaloble, because going back, yung parents are very overresponsive, very, you know, self-sacrificing some kids, which then parang creates this. Because this is so, so uh prevalent, no, sa immigrant uh culture, um, dito, not just the Filipino culture, no, but you know, it's among immigrants per se. Kase. Again, obviously, like especially for the ones who were refugees. Imagine they just kind of they did all that they could paramadal family dito escaping poverty, crime, war, all of these things, no? And so, there's so much focus on and and as it should, no? Na, they escape that. So ang sacrifice. And so, but what's also hard, kise, especially when y na yung parang na ging importance na merda toloy expectations ng paran sa mga anak, na I did all of this for you.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Therefore, you should you know either provide or you should just parang obey or whatever it is, um, it becomes a little bit hard because when we think about it, hindi naman pini lin mg kids, you know, walanaman silam wala naman silang expectation much from the parents na, oh mom, you should just, for example, like Hindi is refugees na na na side, right? But for people that who just chose to migrate, like hindi na gino mom, can you migrate to the states para begin mg and a better future? I mean, choice namant parents, right? So I could see how definitely, you know, it creates that utang na lob and a little bit of that imbalance then, you know.
SPEAKER_08Right, right. So there's, I mean, needless to say, there's a lot of expectations involved, right? As a parent and as a child. We also mentioned earlier about how going back to what you said, that uh when kids aren't able to express themselves fully, because the parents, knowing their experience, like in your example as an immigrant, knowing their experience, um, they feel they take it upon themselves that they have wisdom and that they know better. You know, and because they're the parent, they decide for the family and they just want what's best for the family. There are two things that come into play for me here. One is the idea of the higher hierarchy is really important in a lot of cultures, not just in Filipino, uh, among Filipinos. Um, well, since we're talking about our culture, the idea of manopo, of asking for blessings actually harkens not just to this one is quite interesting, the network religious aspect, it's more of historical now because yung culture natin before pre-colonial, or that you have the bigger nation and you have the barangay, the smaller unit that comprises a nation. And the barangay is actually composed of three hierarchical structures. You have the datu, you have the the the one who leads, and then composed also of the uh the nobles. You have that class, you have the free men, the timawa, then you have the dependents, the alipin. So I'm not saying that, of course, our familiar interactions or rather our familial relations are exactly those three divisions, no, but it just harkens back to the idea that there is a structure involved in the family, and the top structure is always the one that's powerful and makes the decisions for everyone. So usually the people underneath have no choice but just to follow, follow them, right? And going back to the top here, they're always putting the whole structure's needs first. So that's also another role expectation. If you're at the top, Yanyun Kailan won't go in. And the other expectations that come into play here are the ideas of Akiki-sama and Kapwa. So you cannot break that harmonious structure that those divisions. So you are expected to really be in harmony with each other, to be agreeable, to be considerate. So, as a child, for example, when I hear what you just said, when some of your um patients would say that I wasn't, I didn't, I never asked to come here. I mean, actually, you know what? Listening to it now coming from you, I can't help but also think from my own background, I thought, oh gosh, that really sounds ungrateful. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, it really sounds ungrateful. And then when I think about when I put myself myself in the shoes of your of your um a lot of pressure, you know, it's a lot of pressure to live up to. Sorry, that right because I think there was a pause.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's a pause. So isabimona, um, isabi malaina, when you think about your experience, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08It's a lot of and I put myself in their shoes, it's a lot of pressure, it's really overwhelming to live up to, yeah, you know, especially what's expected of me in Highland, where I mustn't say anything to disrupt the harmony that you know the people on top in not insist, but have created. And honestly, harmony is is good, is always a good thing, but it can also have a bad thing because when I'd like to think that change is a necessity and disruption is also a necessity for change, yeah. You know, and growth, necessity for growth then, yeah, yeah, in order for things to move forward and grow. Yeah, so it's interesting, Lam No, it's such a big topic that what we're discussing, you the role expectations, because as mentioned earlier, not only does it talk about the actual structure within the family, it also harkens to other aspects and other things like these behavioral patterns that we've just mentioned, yung pa kiti sama, utang nalo, yung pag mamano, yung pag sasakri picho, you know. So, sorry, so for our non-Filipino speaking um listeners, the idea of manopo is basically in our culture, in the Philippine culture, is to take an elder's hand and to bring it towards one's forehead to ask for a blessing. So that's a uh a sign of respect. Nowadays, it still happens, but uh you see it also between friends or between like when I see my aunts and uncles, I have to kiss them. So the idea of beso, which is more Spanish in its background, it's also a form of respect, right? So, anyways, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I wanna talk about Insina Bunisa, ma kase. I know we've talked about this before. I don't know if you've got a chance to see it. You've have you seen Encanto yet, the movie, Disney movie? Okay, yeah, yeah. So do you remember how again young young abuela, right? Young grandma was all about like keeping young magic, keeping young um, gosh, yung, yeah, keeping yung in canto, keeping the magic. And so again, when when she viewed Yung see um Isabel, not Isabella, um gosh, Mirabel. Mirabel was the one who again found this Parang's family secret and and saw the itung vision y Bruno, right? So she's deemed as somebody who's disrupting the harmony. You know, so you know, you could see again was trying to protect the you know, the encanto, trying to protect this magic of family, and Mirabel was the one who was seen as the disruptor. So again, you could see the tension that was building up, because you're disrupting your harmony, bakiki, what we're trying to do here. But really, you know, we as we can see, uh, spoiler alert, in the end, young disruption in Mirabel was actually helpful to really parang to see and um helping family realize yung talagang ko an yung what's really happening. Because again, the sisters were really you know falling apart, they were really having a tough time. Young his sisters Isabella felt a lot of pressure. So it's just it's just an oba parang, you know, it's yin yung parang maybe kind of like a pop culture reference to be able to illustrate this because it's a it's just essentially the same thing.
SPEAKER_08Definitely, and uh obviously uh Encanto is a movie uh that has uh I mean it's based on Mexican culture, right? Which is very familiar to us. Colombian. I'm sorry, Colombian culture, yeah, yeah. Colombian, which is very familiar to us because Colombia was also a colony of of Spain, you know. So yeah, so uh you have that. Um that's why actually that movie it really felt like a Filipino movie because a lot of the scenes there, like even the throwing of the slipper, um, to uh not punish, but to um to correct, is that the term to correct a child? I mean that's all I mean that's what happens to us too, happened to us too when we were kids, you know. But it goes back again to the idea now that the elders, that's the rule that is expected of them, you know, that they have wisdom, they know all the answers, and yeah, they know all the answers, and of course that they're the keepers of harmony in the family. Yeah, so it's not just anymore about being the provider, they also enable those other things, you know, as a as a leader, as an elder, rather. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So in like information, telegang rich in which parang deeply embedded telegraph culture nata and all of these things. You can definitely see how it's yeah plays out.
SPEAKER_08Actually, uh through the course of my reading uh, you know, articles, and from what I know, it's also very uh it's prevalent not just in our culture, but in a lot of cultures, like in Southeast Asia. Family ties are so tightly knit, right? Compared to other cultures, right? Um, the idea of families, I mean, you see it, how the way our cultures live, right? It's so hard for us. To fly the coop. Like we're always within the compound, you know. Our families are just nearby, you know, uh within reach. Yeah. And it has its advantages and disadvantages, obviously. Yeah. But it's just it's just a prevalent, it's prevalent in our cultures, you know, in a lot of cultures rather. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like, do you think, because again, you know, here we are just kind of still talking about like the parents kumbaga when we think about the role expectations and all. And so sa, you know, sa sa palange mo like, you know, an yung parang nabasa mo like in terms of whether it differs. Kung iko yung tatae, cho yung nanae. Any thoughts around that?
SPEAKER_08Based on my experience and my observations, I feel and I've seen, and I know because it's also in my own experience, that the father usually is assigned as the provider. Right? Not just as the head of the family, but as a provider and as a protector. And then the mother, the expectation is she's the nurturer. So she's in charge of the household and raising the kids. So anything that has to do I hate to say it because it sounds quite sexist, but I mean let's call it spade a spade. Role expectations are actually also very sexist in nature, right? Not only are they ageist, they're also sexist in nature. Um, because gender plays a huge role, also, right? The expectations of gender plays a huge role. So with that being said, being a mother and being a nurturer um entails a lot of emotion, a lot of heart. And we see that in pop culture, in stories, mother nature, for example. You know, yeah. So the mother usually represents the heart of the matter. So that's what is expected of her.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. And then young dad is the protector, so he has to be strong. Right? And usually what comes into play, like with gender expectations, like if your emotions are at the top of your game, you're emotional. And what does emotional mean? You're a b you're you're weaker. You're weaker, and then the father is stronger. So even the idea of being the protector, what comes to mind? Like you have, I don't know, a warrior with a shield and uh and a weapon, right? A mother, what does she have? You know, she has her arms, right? Yeah, yeah. Even the Virgin Mary, she shows the Pieta when she's taking care of Jesus Christ. What is she? She's cradling, she's cradling the son of Christ, you know, and all that. So you have these expectations. Then again, I feel like we always have to constantly say that it's not necessarily a bad thing, right? Taking on or adhering to these expectations. What we're driving at actually in this conversation is what what impacts do these expectations have, right? But, anyways, that's for later. We can discuss that later. Let's focus first on what we just pointed out the father and the mother figures in the family. So I don't know, is this something that you could relate to, like these expectations that I just described?
SPEAKER_02In terms of like, you know, parents, no, in terms of father and mother, in terms of young experiences ko, chaka semangan nakagita ko, like definitely, right? So I think of young, um, I think of like young my grandpa, young um maternal grandfather ko, like work, and yung grandma ko, like she was the one taking care of all seven kids. She was at home, she was the nurturer. And so very quintessential parang role roles in the family, yung and grandparents ko. And now coming down na sa parents ko, it was a little different. Kasi yung dad ko yes was working, mom ko was also like working. So now you have two um two income households. And then in terms of like yung care sakin, I would say it was a little bit more kind of given now, cause parang modern, no, in the 80s, right? Then you have like yung parang nanny or yung helper sabahai that was like focused on a little bit my care. So it's a little bit different now to where yung care was split between yung parents ko um to now I had this other caregiver. So it's definitely yung yung parang one of the things then na I can't discount because when we think about like roles in the family, for some families, I would say for me too, no, nah one of the another important caregiver na figure was one of the you know nannies ko like in one in one particular yung man nan ko was like there with me for more than 10 years. So I would call her like a really an attachment figure, no. So um parang auxiliary. So I'm sure many, may, maybe some of our listeners also have that same experience, similar experience. Because we even talked to some yung clients ko dito who are immigrants, no, they do talk about like, oh yeah, yung masklose, for example, not only sa mom ko, like some mung auntie ko, an auntie ko who didn't have kids. So yung second mom ko, in fact, maskosa nya. So those would be the things na na sharedin, masharedin dila. And you know, and quite common dinsa culture nat, and especially if yung parents are over OF Ws. Right? Yeah. So yung na giging parang um caretaker is usually yung grandparents, aunties, older siblings, right? Yun yung means um caregivers. So obviously we could see na undaming variation uh roles, you know.
SPEAKER_08Right. That's interesting because uh well, in the work that I do, I interview a lot of people um and they're basically looking for work and I interview them. And a lot of times the male would always mention that the reason behind him looking for work is because he wants to provide for his family. Yeah. And then you also have single parents, you have single mothers who also have no choice because they want to provide for their family, and that's the reason why they're looking for work. So, like you said, there are a lot of variations with these role expectations. In my experience, actually, while you were explaining about your family, I also started thinking about my family. There was a little bit of a role reversal eventually, also, in as much as I remember hearing my mom talk about my dad working. My mom was also working, especially when the family, you know, was still young and I only had the eldest brother. But as time progressed, was my mom now who's the one busy keeping things together, keeping the books in order, etc. And was my dad was more of the nurturer, you know, so like she shifts Dinsha and all that. So, and as much as we put things in boxes with this discussion of ours, like you said, yeah, things eventually meld, things change, things morph, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And so just kind of curious now, kind of maybe shifting a little bit more, uh siblings, shifting things a little like siblings lang. And so I'm sure you have a little bit more experience at all, but in terms of like young parang roles, essentially, like say experience small, what have you seen? What have you observed?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, uh you know, based on my experience and also the conversations I've had with friends, I had to uh like you, uh I had to uh consult also my friends about this topic and to get their own ideas about it, which on a side note to our listeners, like if you have any comments or suggestions, you can definitely make comments too. It would make this conversation even all the more interesting and rich, you know. So um going back to your question, well, the eldest child actually apakame, we're four in the family, uh four kids in the family. So the eldest child is usually the representative of the father and mother. So he's expected to be almost, I don't know, second in command, I guess, especially when the parents are away or working. So what's expected of him is as a second in command, when the parents are away busy foraging the forest to give back food, to give food, he has to be the mature one. He has to have things together, you know, and also he plays both roles, or he or she, they play both roles, not just to feed the kid when they're hungry, the younger siblings, but also be the nurturer. So consult him or her if you have any issues or problems, talk to them, you know, them being the elder one. And then you have the middle children. Sorry, these are just generalized ideas, yeah. And I'm sure a lot of people can also relate to it. You have the middle children. Now, the middle child, I had a hard time, and even my friends had a hard time trying to think of what is a middle, what is expected of the middle child, you know, and I think the mere fact that we were wondering about it a lot of the time, the middle child actually people poke fun at the middle child. You see that also in movies that usually the middle child is the one that's forgotten. Yeah, yeah. So they're the one in between that I guess doesn't really matter. I mean, a lot of people, I mean, it sounds really cruel, but people poke fun at that. You know, they're the ones that don't really matter. Yeah. I even wrote down here, I don't know if it's part of expectations, but usually the middle child, they're expected to be secretive and resentful and quiet. Yeah. I don't know if that's an expectation for a role. Yeah, but a lot of times they're perceived that way, right? Um when we talk about people, they they ask, oh, Anubasha, what part of the sibling is he? And then when they say, and then usually people would say, you know, so you have the middle child syndrome, right? Yeah, they get a bad rap, no. Uh-huh. Them um craving for attention because it's either given to the eldest or the youngest, right? So which brings me to the youngest. So usually the expectation of the youngest is helpless, favorite, star, you know. Yeah. Just on a side note, my friend actually said something funny. He said that the eldest child, since we're talking about na yung manga um yung characteristics, yung expected characteristics, then these roles. Um, yung eldest child that was born out of love. That's why you yung eldest child is also important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um yung middle child, test of love. Kasi um that's pretty funny. Kasi kilaan pa ng ng play meat yung play meet yung, yeah, yung yung pay. Uh oh. So basically, spare, ksi bang just in case, you know, pay kasama yung eldest, so shy yung spare. So yung youngest na man, sha yung return to love. Umang pride, na parang kaya paratin to. Gungata isa, kaya pa t. Kaya pa mga kata wa na natin, kaya ba na, you know.
SPEAKER_08So yeah, yung mga nan cha. But in a way it also rings true. Well, I don't know, I'm not a parent, but I'm sure, you know.
SPEAKER_02Maybe there's probably some truth to that, no. Like, you know, I can definitely see how like mg certain experiences na mga bang couples, no, na, you know, actually, no, let me let me I can't generalize it, but I do remember my isang client ko, na, it was yung sibling nya yung yung sibling nya mala ki yung gap between her and yung sibling ya. And the parents did have like a big tawagi nating attachment injury, a betrayal that happened.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_02And right after itong big betrayal that happened, na repair nila to some degree, and then they had yung middle child, yung second child. So it is that parang hindi sha's panu spirit, parasang, oh, uh talagong, we were working hard, ulit sa marriage natin, and here's like proof na telagang together patayo, right? Which actually turned out na ging na ging last na sha. So it is parang middle slash last na na kaya panatin to like see our love is still pure and true. So yes, and you know, I'm I'm I'm not gonna be surprised if some of these things itin ng yar is mga sa for couples, you know? Yeah. So saf in na man lay, cause I was like, cause again, I very limited information based on my experience, but you know, what I what I did was I I actually I actually asked young friends ko, chaka yung cousins ko, and even yung family members ko, like you experienced experiences na la with this. And so yung kind of like what you said, right? Yung firstborn, have this really you know high expectation ka se kung wala yung parents parang sila yung second in command, right? Like what you said.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And also yung eldest sibling, I would say I'm gonna start first, because I'm gonna differentiate muna yung yung role. Yung eldest baba, I would say based on sa observations ko, based on some family experiences co working with clients ko, and yung personal experiences ko with with my family around, there's a tremendous amount of pressure on the eldest girl. Kasi parang eldest kana, so and expectations girl ka pa, so it's nurture so that's an extra like weight on you to be not only to model, to lead, right? But to also nurture you mung siblings small, right? Yung younger siblings small. You teach them the ways, pag b C C mom or dad, pagwala si la you help them change yung diet or nila, fix yung formula, you know, all of those things. So there's an enormous amount of pressure, right? Especially sa yung siblings. And not only that, like yung nakita ko din, and you know, naman yung parang joke natin sa culture natin and other Asian cultures, no. Now, yeah, you know, yung parang uh a big emphasis on education. And so yung eldest sibling in this scenario hindi lang sa babay, but I think like eldest siblings in general, there seems to be just a lot of pressure in terms of you know academically parang achieving, right? Uh-huh. So being able to kind of meet people's expectations, not lend them down.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Primarily not being letting parents down.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you have to set a good example, cause you mg siblings more, right? So you set the standard, right? So that's that's a lot of pressure, you know?
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_02And also feeling like, oh, kasi ako yung second in command, da pat yung mga answers ko ta for the sake of my siblings. Kasi kung mali y uto tu ko sa ni la na yung alam ni la, right? So it's it's really like a huge amount of pressure, I would say, sa sa sa eldest na siblings, you know. And so even yung mga friends ko y ngga mga cousins ko na I I talk to, like they still feel this to this day. You know?
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02This this um this pressure paranormal. Even when somewhat usually when we grow older, parang equalize na la hat some somewhat, yeah, they st there it's still there, right?
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_02Young middle child, I had a very interesting and a young I know yung yung yung parang feedback mo from your from your friends about being a middle child. Interestingly enough, like I talked to like a close friend, na, parang middle child sha, but yung experience, and and even yung experience, it's like they still feel like there's a lot of pressure to follow your footsteps older kids.
SPEAKER_06Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02And so, but the thing is, a lot of times, because older siblings, they're gonna sila, they're like skyrocketed, right? They've skyrocketed. So imagine being the middle child and expected to also skyrocket just as much as your older sibling, right? Yeah that's a lot, that's a that's a lot of pressure then. I know. And so um, so it's it's it's super hard. Nah, I can see definitely see how you know, especially because I'm sure the family around them, like, oh, yung si ate mo or sikuyamo did this and did that. Like, yi de bai, like the how it weighs on you.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, yung impression. So that's like I can imagine that to be like super, you know, super hard. Yung last seman kind of similar um yung says it's a na gather mo with your with your friends, yung's youngest child. I think of the way I I the way I see it, yung my younger child, they have a lot more leeway, they have a lot more room, I think.
SPEAKER_08Because I think they get away with a lot of things, right?
SPEAKER_02Right. And actually I can I can speak to that a little bit. Because yung second ko because I'm a lot less paramaskampante naho sa parenting ko, hindi naho gano ka overresponsive, I'm able to kind of like, you know what, kaya nya, I can give her some space. And I've seen this a second ko, like she's a lot more independent. I'm not like hovering over her, right? And she's actually able to do, I wouldn't say more, but but she has a lot more breathing room. And so, and so in my case, yung older ko is very clingy, salmon, only because I created that environment, right? Because it was like covering. But then yung second ko, she's not as clingy, cause I have given her a lot, you know, room, right? So yin yung, the thing that you know uh comes up for me in terms of young, young, young youngest kids, have a lot more room, yeah, and to some degree. Some would call them parang spoiled, khasi, yung star, cause they've been um ca se again, yung last na. So talagong, okay, make sure you give them all the hubs, and the baby more, kise, yin yung last, right? So parangan din yung yung parang rhetoric na that happens.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. You know, I find what you said interesting when you were comparing how you were as a parent with your first child versus how you were as a parent with your second child, right? And as much as it harkens back to what we were discussing about hierarchy and the sense of order and how things have become and how a lot of things come into play, gender, culture, etc., the environment also and experience comes into play, right? So a lot of these role expectations are also born out of a parent's experience with their first child. For example, they're always constantly hovering and expecting so much from the first child because that's what they knew then. That's what the parents knew then. But knowing what they know as you know, as the next child is born, etc. etc. And sorry, when you get to the youngest, when I mentioned earlier that the youngest gets away with a lot, gets away, you know, with a lot of things, it's because, well, I of course, saying again that we're not generalizing, but it seems quite likely that the reason why they get a lot away with a lot of things is because the parents already know how to handle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_08It's either that or they're they've just grown tired. They're like, okay, I just don't want to deal with that anymore because I've dealt with you know three kids before, you know, this last one, you know, and all that. So yeah, so it really varies to um a per the parents' experience. In my case, because I'm the youngest. So usually when I say the youngest, I smile a lot because I can relate to a lot of these expectations, you know, that I'm the more gregarious one, I'm the more expressive one, because I see myself as that too. But now that we're discussing it, I'm also starting to think that the way I'm being, how much of it is adhering to consciously and unconsciously adhering to these role expectations, you know, and how much of it also is experiential, since the entire people who have gone before me, siblings and even the parents, I mean, now that they have adhered to all these expectations, how much of it have I played into? Yeah. So not only is it an adherence, an unconscious or conscious adherence, but how much of it is, you know, I adhere to that I'm actually doing it also. So paranaging, I guess for lack of a better, I'm sure you can put in something more specific, but I guess generational, I wouldn't say trauma, but it's sort of like an echo of some generations and generations of things being repeated again and again and again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I was just gonna say quickly then, because uh, well, actually, you know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna say muna briefly, like yung own experience ko, like since we're talking about like roles muna, in terms of the only children. So again, I can I can speak, you know, I can speak about my own experience. I can kind of gather then yung some clients ko and even some of the readings that I have, so ibang experience namga only kids know. And so I I would say in terms of me and personal experience ko, like I was like really inclined, or at least like not the pressure, but I was really strongly encouraged to excel academically.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so I don't know, parents ko my parents thought na they would probably have other kids pa. I don't know, but there was this amount of pressure, I would say. I would say to be fair, na man hindi mancha tak sobra, like, oh my god, like super heavy pressure. But there was really this strong encouragement na. To excel. And I remember especially Sadad Ho, like very anusha, very encouraging in that regard. And so, and there's also like a certain, like, you know, you I for me personally, I develop a strong sense of independence. I had to, right? Because I'm not going to be able to make a lot of people who are going to be able to cousins ko hindi available to play, guess what? So usually ngase yunga. I mean, they couldn't really play, they're busy. So I've just, I would really have just play, engage in play on my own. So ganon yun. And even some clients ko that are also only kids, some of the things that they talk about. Na, they're very, very, they have a strong sense of independence and yung autonomy so strong that actually it interferes in their ability to ask for help.
SPEAKER_08Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02And actually, this resonates with me.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because you take it upon yourself, I take it upon myself to like figure it out. Da pat alam ko, right? I can only depend on my own. I can only rely on my own. Kasi wola yung iba, right? So merun yon. And it's it's fascinating to see yung ibang clients kuna only kids. And I see it's like, oh, that's so interesting. Because I embody that then. So yin yung, yung yung parang, yung yung role, expectation, na, and it yung parang how it shows up then sa day-to-day, nila.
SPEAKER_08Right, right. It goes back again to what we said about I guess that's the whole idea behind the formation of an individual, right? The formation is different factors, different variants that make who we are right now. So, in as much as we've organized things with these, you know, expectations and the expected roles, but um, because in my experience, I'd like to think, in as much as I am the youngest, I've had certain experiences also which have made me autonomous and independent. But I've also had experiences that have made me otherwise. I wouldn't say that I'm clingy, but I mean, you know, that I'm quite dependent on people as well, dependent on validation, etc. You know, so yeah, I guess it really depends also on one's upbringing. Yeah, you know, but which also brings me to another important point, and the reason why we're also having this conversation, because with all these that come into play, what is the impact of it all? Right? Like we have these roles, these expectations as a father, mother, child. What can the impact be? Because there are some positive impacts, of course, both positive and negative, as with all things. The positive, like let's say if we go back to parents, being the provider, being the nurturer, they've committed to that role. The positive is like in your case, being the only child, and you felt really encouraged. So, in as much as there was pressure to do well at school, you had a father who was actually quite nurturing, you know. So that's sort of like the in as much as it's a variation of what we just said presented, but the mere fact is it did you well, right? It taught you to be autonomous, it taught you to be secure about yourself because you had parents who you know validated um a lot of things. Right. Um, but what are some of the negatives, right? So we've mentioned time and again the idea of pressure and the idea of stress um adhering to these roles, right? I I wonder what else, what else can we think of like that can result to adhering to these expectations?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure, young stressed in. But you know what, Lei, I want to comment because in terms of young stress now we feel, and now I think nowadays like we talk about that a little bit more about like, hey, it's bringing experience growing up, right? And I think like this generation and even an obatayo, like millennial, xennial, na generation, and now younger ones now, like yung mung twenties, I don't know, gen alpha, I have no idea. But anyway, like a lot more conversation about your experiences, no? So, which is nice, because we talk about it. But actually, interestingly enough, yung impact satin ng growing up, like what I said, we're talking about it now. Na papa sim ko na with the older ones, right, yung ka idanang paran satin, the way that they see it is that this is just how it was.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Itul ng talag experience go. And they don't necessarily, and I'm not saying na parang, you know, necessarily it was normalized or parasaka nila okay lang, or, you know, it was all like unicorns and rainbows, essentially. I don't know. But yung manga naha ka usa ko even some of my clients then na yung mga parang 60s and olders, right, in that age range, the way that they see young roles nila growing up, whether it was like oldest salah, and usually the ones that I kind of like talk to, oldest women, like naked that that was just what you did. You just had to do that.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_02And they feel very indifferent about yung own feedings. And again, that's how they are very nonchalant about it, right? And so I just wonder, I just wonder, because I'm kind of curious because sometimes like I like to peel back on experience, but even when you it's interesting because even when you see natal gang very nonchalant sila about how it's affected them, you can tell na dito na sila, like parang, you would see some of the little little breaking points.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But they don't talk about it. Hindi na pinapagusapan. And so that's the part na yung generation kasi nila was kind of like that. And also maybe yung own role nila is expected. Oh, you don't talk about it. You don't share it, right? Oh, khasi da pat oldest child, nika da pat mung share about those. So I could definitely see how some of that is also coming into play. So yung yung parang interesting lang to see na yung older generation not really talking much about their roles, tayo a little bit more open, right? For sure yung younger ones, but yeah, yung overarching yan, and I'm guessing there's again, there's stress, of course. It's just normal, right? It happens. Yes, we we were able to derive like plenty of like good qualities or good, like my good outcomes, but it didn't come, it wasn't just about that, downsides to it, you know.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah. I could relate to that because I've heard it firsthand how like a parent, one parent had told me before that, you know what, I don't want to do that anymore because I'm done. I'm done being a parent. So, in as much as there was commitment to provide for the family, but you can tell that, and you know, that that was part of that generation that you were describing earlier, that it just needed to be done. That's just what that's what was expected. So we need to do that. But the mere fact that you mentioned that, that a parent would mention that, I mean, then there was something involved that was some form of resentment of that role. That kind of I'm done. I'm done. You know, so it just makes you wonder. It makes you wonder. I mean, it's all good if a person says that, you know, it's done, it's given us great things and all that. But sometimes you have to wonder also at what price, at what cost? What has it costed? You know, like if we look at the eldest and the eldest is expected to be a certain way, and they go look at uh the youngest, you could look at the next sibling. I took care of you and all that, but at what cost? Because I took care of you, yeah, you know, so why do you do that?
SPEAKER_00So I mean, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08If it was all roses and unicorns, if it was all expected, you know, then what can you utan na loob?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, resentment may be bad.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Why is there a need? Why is there a necessity? Yeah. You know, so I just find that interesting, a result of these expectations. The whole idea also behind expectations is if they're unmet, so what you uh to what you expected, if they're not in line with what you had expected, there's a lot of frustration and disappointment that ensues, right? So going back to the idea of the eldest being the mature one, being the you know, that but put together because you're the second incoming man. So if they don't, if that doesn't happen, what becomes of them? They become the black sheep, you know, and they become the biggest disappointment in the family, you know. Same thing also with the youngest. If the youngest isn't the gregarious one or the youngest becomes secretive, yeah, but people are always shocked, but happy and all that.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you know, so exactly.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, so it's unmet expectation. So it's interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, tama. Unfair. Yeah, and unfair, yeah. Because I do see that lay yung parang yung mga bitterness and resentment reeking. Um from the I would say, you know what, you know, at least yung sa current like dynamics ko sa family ko, like what I would say. Like I could see it kind of really spew out a little bit, no, itong parang sense of yung yung oldest one, usually, kasi ito maraming like pressure and all of that. And it's just really, frankly, like heartbreaking, and on na, you know, uh, especially when these are not really talked about, these are not discussed as a family, kasi we don't know how to talk about it. It just creates these like parang wedges communication issues, yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's wedges in in between. And so, and maybe sakana, like maybe as we're parang slowly, slowly transitioning na na from this friend from this topic and all, because I was just gonna say, I mean, definitely like madami pong, madame pa taim like stuff to like discuss. But yeah, I think you know, when I think about this, cause usually when when we have these podcasts, like towards the end, we usually have like maybe either kind of things to have in mind or or strategies or whatever. But really, when I was reflecting on this, like it just I just kind of like thought about hey, as we're just maybe a little bit more aware about young roles na den designate satin, or young roles na na designate sa parents natin, or whoever, like siblings, people that we interact with, like can we make space for that, Deba? Can we make space for that? Can we just maybe think about that for a second? Not the man to like invalidate your own experience, Natin.
SPEAKER_08Right, or their experience, or their experience, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So can we just kind of make space for that and consider that? Because for the longest time, and I think this is so true, no, kasi ako always again ever evolving, ever learning. There are some like family members where and I kind of think, nah, man, like telagong after all these years, telagun merun paranakung, like there's still something that I feel. And then when I do sit and think about what this person has gone through, and I make space for their experience, it really like grounds me and puts me back to kind of thinking, okay, this makes sense why this person responds in this way. This makes sense why this response where this person is this way towards me, right? Now it's not necessarily about me, it's really yung upbringing no person at. And it's actually like parang yun yung hindi lang ho, because it's sometimes like again, being the old child means and you think it's about you. And so, like, no, experience it to na ibang ta'o then, right? And so it helps me, it grounds me to kind of go, no, and and give a little bit of grace and compassion sa ta'o na yon. And a lot of times yung feelings ko sa ta'o na yun is neutralized a little bit. So something that maybe perhaps our listeners can be aware of is like make space for that, no, make space for your experiences ng family members or even friends or whatever. And and along with that, can we give just a little bit of grace and compassion, knowing that this might be their experience?
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_02Anything you could add to that, Lei?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, uh, what we're doing, I feel like conversations are really important, not just talking about this, you know, but wondering about things because you mentioned about giving space and considering things. The mere fact that you discuss it, not just of course with you know within the family, but amongst your friends too, creating an awareness about what's happening. I think that's also part and parcel of consideration, right? Talking about it. Because in the process of talking about things, you find your own experience, you validate your own experience, you validate other people's experience, and you also try to find ways how to stay on top of things. You know, one of the beauty, uh beautiful things about conversations is like if we become a balloon filled with so much gas, be it arrogance, be it frustration and anger, what conversation allows is the ability to just deflate, right? To deflate. And in the process of deflating, actually you realize things and you see things better. You find perspective. And yeah, I feel like talking about things is a good first step. And also, one of the things that I realized now that we're talking about it, the unnecessity of these role expectations. It doesn't have to be a certain way, yeah, you know, because once you let go of having to adhere to things, I'm not saying that, you know, you drop everything and live a life of anarchy and you know, you know, turn your way, uh turn your back to your family. No, the idea that it's you don't need to, there is no need to adhere to a certain role creates a lot of freedom, right? And a lot of you can sigh. Actually, you can sigh when you're like, oh no, no, I don't have to do it.
SPEAKER_02It diffuses pressure, it diffuses pressure. Everything is shared, not everything's supposed everybody's supposed to help out. Everybody's part of the family. Hindi lang si ate, hindi lang sikuya, right? Everybody, yeah. It does like feel like oh, like this sigh of relief. Not right, we're all in this together. Elders.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's it's really important, and I'm glad you know that this podcast exists. You that n sali ng bangko.
SPEAKER_01I'm really glad the own horn.
SPEAKER_08I don't know. Sorry for tooting our own tubas, but um, it's great because I mean this is also helpful for me and and Stephanie. We both get to learn a lot of things about ourselves, about our culture, about our own environments, you know, and how we interact with people and learn more also about the people that we interact with, you know. So we're glad to get to share this talk, this discussion, this conversation to all of our listeners.
SPEAKER_02I was also really happy because I was gonna say thanks to some of my friends and family who were willing to be interviewed. Because I really honestly like when I when I when I learned about their experience late, but I was like a little heartbroken, you know. They they shared in great detail the experiences, and it was so beautiful to like get to know them a little bit more, and it just made me feel closer to them, just listening to it and reading it. And so um, Rami Salama to to my my family and friends who like you know was like really responded because it you know, I was just it, yeah, it drew me closer to them, yeah. Yeah, and so thanks to my friends too. Yeah, and so again, Salama, thank you all for for listening. Um, this episode Nato. We really appreciate you folks still listening. And again, like hopefully we're gonna be a little bit more paran consistent. But in summon a podcast, now we we took that big hiatus, and hopefully we get to share more, you know, for the upcoming year. Again, super thank you for listening. And uh till next time. Bye bye.